This post is the second of several that consist of transcripts of conversations with frontline workers, inspired by the audio histories complied by the late Studs Terkel. My intention here is to let the workers speak for themselves. You can listen to it as a podcast below!

https://five.libsyn.com/show/episodes/view/32401137

Crosby

All right. Greetings. It’s Gil Crosby with you again. And this is yet another in a series of podcasts based on my upcoming book, View from a target, which is about the experience of hourly workers and the possibilities that happen when leaders start to listen to them and allow them to experiment, to try to make things work better. So that’s the type of work that I’ve been involved in all my life and I am determined to talk to as many hourly workers as I can that I’ve ever run into as part of this book and get their voices in here. To that end I have today a special guest, Mr. Mark Horswood. How are you doing?

Horswood

I’m doing good. Gil. How about yourself?

Crosby

I’m doing great. Yeah, especially just in this moment. Having this chance to talk to you.  Now I believe you were an electrician. Still are at heart, no doubt. At Warwick for years before Dad ever showed up there, or any OD work was done. And I’m telling that basically right, aren’t I?

Horswood

Yes, yes. I spent my last 20 years as an electrician. First 10 years of labor on the railroad.

Crosby

That’s right. You’ve told me about that. A bit. Thirty years, you were at Warrick?

Horswood

Thirty years. And you know, I say I spent my last 20 as an electrician. You know, really more accurately is my last seven I was more like an internal consultant.

Crosby

You were doing the OD work that Dad had taught and you were actually working with me a bunch, I think.

Horswood

Yeah, with you and with Tom and Aldus. Yeah, you know, just traveling around with you guys most days and you know I was an electrician but the guys on my crew, whenever I didn’t have something, some OD work, because I traveled around quite a bit too. They called me “part time,” said I need to be retrained because I wasn’t an electrician.

Crosby

Anymore.

Horswood

I wasn’t doing electrician work that much. I’ve was still officially titled as one.

Crosby

Sure. And you were a union steward. So at least part of what I want, I’m hoping you’ll talk some about what was your work experience like before Dad ever showed up there? I think he was the first person to walk in that does our type of OD stuff. And Cotton. Mears. You know, Cotton. He described Warrick, his life there, well, at least emotionally. He said, there were only two emotions. Pissed off or not pissed off.

Horswood

Right, right.

Crosby

So just whatever you want to say about what it was like for you before.

Horswood

Yeah, well, it was such a contentious place. I mean, just in general. The relationship between the company and the union was just, I mean, it was like warfare, really. I mean, everything was fought for and you know every new change the company tried to come up with, just because of the relationship, I mean, the union was against it. When I was union steward, I remember a guy in HR telling me years later they just had a standing order. First step of grievance, deny every one of them. (Crosby laughs) Yeah, I mean there was just a rubber stamp kind of thing. I really don’t know what the strategy hoped to gain by it. But he said, “Yeah, they just had a standing order. Denying first step.”

Crosby

Now did the union kind of have an opposite approach, like grieve everything?

Horswood

Yes. Yeah, I mean things that just could be and were later, you know, just could be worked out. Talked out. You know, some sort of compromise or some sort of agreement. So we kind of fell into the pattern too. It’s like everything that they suggested or tried or tried to implement, we just said, “No, no, no, no, no.”

Crosby

Yeah. You were with me at the bauxite refinery down there in Texas when we did a T-group workshop…

Horswood

Yeah. Corpus Christi.

Crosby

With the union leadership and the management and right away, the first hour or so the HR guy for the plant said something and one of the union leaders stood up and said, “I don’t know what he said, but whatever it was, I’m against it!”

Horswood

Exactly! I literally thought he was kidding.

Crosby

(Laughs) Yeah, it was a beautiful moment of honesty, actually.

Horswood

(Laughs) Yeah, I remember that.

Crosby

Yeah. So anyway, so that’s sort of where Warwick was at. I don’t know if there’s anything else. Did you think that you were listened to?

Horswood

No, I didn’t feel like we were listened to at all. I mean, it’s hard to imagine. That place evolved so far from where it was when I first started there. But no, you know when it wasn’t expected to be listened to. I mean, it just it just didn’t have a relationship like that where it was communicated. Well, I mean, it seemed like any change or any policy was just handed down. You know, it weren’t co-created or worked together with the concerns of both sides. Just like edicts were just handed down. No conversation.

Crosby

Well, that’s very similar to the experience of Pat Roberson. The last guy interviewed. And so then it started to shift. What’s your first memories of the first time you were aware that maybe something was changing?

Horswood

You know, I think I went to tough stuff first. And I think just my ability to see what was changing.  I think the biggest impact on me that that allowed me to start seeing the change was when I went through Tough Stuff. I remember one of the first things that we covered was whether you’re a victim or whether you’re a creator. It just kind of opened my eyes in the way, I was like looking around and thinking who, we need somebody to step up who’s like leading this thing and where is it? Where are our leaders at? And it just gave me a new perspective going through the Tough Stuff. Hearing that theory about whether you allow yourself to be a victim or be a creator, and I think the very first thing was just an awareness of how I am living and working like a victim. I’m not accessing,  just not having an awareness of what sort of personal power or influence that you may have. And how each person could change their, at least change their dance in the pattern and not just fall into the same predictable negative interactions.

Crosby

Makes sense. Starting with yourself instead of looking for others to somehow fix things.

Horswood

I really do believe things really started to change when your Dad and his staff showed up and did a Tough Stuff. Actually he had been doing Tough Stuffs. The company was sending their managers and supervisors through it. Maybe for a couple of years.  And I can’t remember exactly what the timeline was, the sequence, but they had been doing it for a while and then they offered, between Jess, our business agent…

Crosby

He became a great advocate for…

Horswood

He was great. Yeah. I think because of his leadership and just being coached by your Dad. We did a tough stuff for the Union guys, you know? It was like either you were a union steward, a committeeman….

Crosby

All right, so we had a little technical difficulty there, lost the podcasting website for a few moments. And so here we go again. And you were talking about Jess, the Union Leader, you were just starting to say some things about the change. How you’ve gone through so many union leaders prior to him and so on, but and then we can just go wherever we want to go again, Mark, even though we talked for a while and we didn’t record it. And I’m crying about losing the last twenty minutes or so that we had (laughs).

Horswood

OK, OK. I’ll start talking and if I miss anything that we had in there before, just prompt me on it and we’ll get it.

Crosby

I’ll try to remember (laughs).

Horswood

Because I’m going to talk about when I first started noticing things changing. We were talking about in our work together about how things started changing at the Warwick plant that I worked at and I think one big moment of change was, they the company offered Tough Stuff training to a group of union leaders, and they asked our business agent just to supply, you know group of…

Crosby

Participants.

Horswood

Participants. Yes, that’s what I’m looking for. So anyway, you know, I remember it was a week long training, 8 hours a day and they asked me to go. I was a union steward. It wasn’t that wasn’t a big deal for me, but I was on the insurance committee, which was pretty big deal, like worth fighting for. And that’s what it was, fighting for benefits, medical benefits. So I was part of that first group and it was a big group. And I remember your Dad and LIOS (the Leadership Institute of Seattle T-group based graduate program that Dad started) was brought down. At least six facilitators, and we had breakout rooms, you know, going everywhere. But I remember my first day. Well, the only reason I even went, I thought, “Well, this will get me out of the pot rooms, you know, for a week. Nice and easy. Had some good meals. I thought that’d be good (Crosby laughs).” So I remember my first day. I came in there and I sat in the back of the class. It was a large class. It might have been 60 some people in there and the first day and I started listening, then it was really fascinating. And the biggest fascination was one of the very first theories they talked about was whether you see yourself as a leader or a victim. And you know, I was really surprised to learn, I’ve been looking around for somebody to take the lead on this and not really even looking in the mirror and thinking I had anything, any influence to offer. So it was the biggest eye opener. You do have a voice and you know you can make a difference, and you can just one person at a time change that relationship just by the way you interact. Or do you fall into the same pattern? And the pattern, it was so contentious in that company, in that union that it was just like warfare.

Crosby

It was a true us and them and them atmosphere.

Horswood

Absolutely.

Crosby

Yes.

Horswood

So you know when your Dad showed up to give the first class of Tough stuff to the union guys, you know, I was. I was mildly interested. I showed up. But I was sitting in the back and it was it was probably my pattern, you know, just sit back there and see how things are going. I was so fascinated by that very first theory about, whether you’re a victim or do you really exercise leadership you have. Having an awareness, you’ve got leadership. And so day two I was sitting in the middle of that group, you know, I was kind of drawn in. I remember day three I was sitting right up front. I mean, I’m totally fascinated by the whole idea and so much of it seemed so, so new to me. I mean, ideas I hadn’t considered before. So I remember sitting right up front. And I remember halfway through the morning, I remember the presenter was up there. I think he was talking about the interpersonal gap, about communication process, and how to improve it and increase understanding. And I just remember sitting there, I thought, “I don’t know what it takes, what kind of degree you got to have to have do this or what kind of certification you need. But I’m going to do it. I mean, it was so impactful to me.

Crosby

And you did. And you do.

Horswood

How to pursue it.

Crosby

You did. And you do it well.

Horswood

Thank you, Sir. You know, the first some of the first inklings I had that it was showing up. This was before I I went to Tough Stuff. It was a an engineer telling me about an occurrence that happened to him. He was part of a group of engineers that were trying to speed up the roll speed on the rolled up coils of aluminum. And they worked on it for eight months. And they put all kind of technology in it. I mean, they kind of threw money at it. And they were trying different high tech processes. And for eight months they had an operator sat in. They’d tell him to do a certain movement on the mill, and he’d do it. But you know, they never asked him what he thought about it, what ideas he had. And this guy had been running that mill for 20 years. And I don’t know if I mentioned this before, but those guys that ran those mills, they were highly sophisticated machines and sophisticated controls and speed variables on it. Those operators were so in tune after working on it for 20 years. You could be talking to them outside the lunchroom They could be 100 feet away from their machine, and there might be two of them there standing there. And both of them, they’d cock their head at the same time and they go, “You just hear that. #2 bridal roll just gave out. I mean, they could tell by the vibration of it, the sound of it. I mean they just were so in tune with it.

Crosby

They were craftsmen.

Horswood

Craftsmen! And really just had such a holistic view of their machine and the process. Well, this one engineer guy, he came from Texas. I know he was a Texan, but he was at Warwick. He had gone to Tough Stuff and he credits Tough Stuff, just with, I mean, it wasn’t even thought of that you asked the hourly.

Crosby

Mmm hmm.

Horswood

You know about what their input was. We used to always laugh. We call it, you know, “This thing was designed from the Ivy Tower. They just, like, get an idea of what they wanted to do and didn’t ever, well, I don’t know if I can say ever.

Crosby

It was rare.

Horswood

It wasn’t a practice that they come down and ask the hourly, “What do you need? How does this work for you? What if you had this? And so this one engineer from Texas that went through Tough Stuff, he finally asked, “What do you think, Carl? What do you think we could do?” And he always imitates him. He’s done it a couple times for me. That guy that he’s talking about, Carl always had a cigar butt in his mouth. He took that out. He said, “I’ll tell you all you need to do is this. Thread that spool up while it’s running.” And all those engineers looked at him and it was just, like, a beautifully simplistic solution. It didn’t take any new technology or anything. And he just said, you know, he felt something like being ashamed or embarrassed, that here was a guy that spent 20 years on it and it never even occurred to the engineers to ask what his input about it was.

Crosby

You know, it’s the kind of knowledge that you wouldn’t notice looking at like a drawing. You’d have to really run the thing for…

Horswood

Exactly. Exactly. You know, we used to compare it to a pit crew for race car drivers. They know exactly where they need that tire to be when they take off that first one, they know exactly what side, what hand they want their impact wrench to be on. I mean only the person doing it can tell you exactly what they need and they know the best way how to do it. They’ve been doing it for a long time and they’re the expert That’s probably one of the great things that your Dad got across to managers and supervisors. Hey, the people doing the work got the most expertise on it.

Crosby

That’s it.

Horswood

Yeah.

Crosby

That’s it. I mean, there’s other experts that have their own expertise, but nobody has the same knowledge as people that are doing the work every day.

Horswood

Yeah. That was a huge change and you know, the more people did it, the more people got engaged. The more the operators, the more union guys got engaged. And you know, it wasn’t an easy transition for them also because, we always said, at that stage of the game with the company, it was like they wanted you to just, “Hey, just check your brain at the gate. We just need your back. We’ll tell you how to do it.” And actually, it was uncomfortable for some operators. They would say if it came to a decision, they’d say, “Ok, that bearings going out on that mill. It’s an expensive piece of equipment. We can hear it’s failing. Do we finish out this run? And then repair it with an outage? Or do we shut it down right now? And really the operator, nine times out of 10 had the best feel for that answer. I heard some of them say to me, they didn’t like being in that position to make the call. They said, “I’ve worked here for 20 years and I’m batting 1000. I never made a bad mistake or decision because I never had to make one.” They would just say to the supervisor, “That bearing is running kind of rough” and just leave it up to them. And it took them a while to get more comfortable taking kinda ownership for their own machine and just being comfortable enough to make a call, thinking, “Hey, you know, if we keep running this, this is going to do some serious damage to this mill. I think we need to shut it down now.” They were never asked to be in that position by the company. And so once they had it that this decision is going to be yours, it took a while for them to get ownership of their own machine. It was just a new place to be.

Crosby

Sure, probably the supervisors were nervous too, about that change.

Horswood

Yes.

Crosby

It’s not. It’s not easy to change in general.

Horswood

It’s not easy to change, and not easy to give up authority.

Crosby

Right.

Horswood

You know, it seems like after I got doing OD work, I’d just get in some candid conversations with some of the supervisors. And you know, they would tell me things like, your Dad was big at employees having influence, and self-managed teams. And, I’ve had supervisors tell me that when they first came out with this self-managed teams upper management was wanting them to train their crews more in administrative stuff. Ordering parts, you know, priority, that kind of thing. Teach their crews how to do it. Well, it just was not handled very well early on because the guys that got their crews to be self-autonomous, they got let go, cause they didn’t need them any longer.

Crosby

The supervisors.

Horswood

The supervisors. And you know the supervisors that stayed, one of them just flat out told me, “There’s no way I’m teaching my guys how to do what I do because what are they going to with me?”

Crosby

(Laughs) that’s interesting.

Horswood

And really, it’s just exactly how it happened.

Crosby

It makes sense though.

Horswood

I mean, he was reading the handwriting on the wall. He said, “You know, so and so, they got their crew self-autonomous, got them doing their things. He’s gone. It was like five or six of them were gone. He said, “I’m not letting go of mine, you know. I’m still working. They’re off.”

Crosby

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. But, I just want to say that Dad actually was involved in putting supervisors back in, in the first plant he worked at with Don Simonic, which was Addy. They had tried self-managed teams before Dad and Simonic got there and like 80% of the teams were not productive. And so when this subject comes up, he wants places to do what works and what generally work clearest is to actually have a supervisor.

Horswood

Yeah, have a supervisor. That particular effort with self-managed seems that they went after, they fairly quickly got it down like, hey, people are getting less willing to develop their crews if they knew their job was in jeopardy. And it came to change where, “Hey, look, if you can do that with your crew, there’s going to be a place for you in this organization.”

Crosby

Well, that’s important. And then they probably had decisions to make about what decisions the crews make and what decisions whoever they are reporting to makes. Because even if there’s no supervisor, they are still working in a department. There’re people above them.

Anyway, what I’m curious about, unless you have something else to say about that, though. You then were the person that was the coordinator, we call it the SPA, single point accountable, for the big planning session at Warrick back in 2000, which was a way to quickly engage lots of workers in with their expertise in coming up with solutions. In your case, to make the paint line, it was the bottleneck in the plant. So it was to get more material through the paint line with of course quality standards and all that. So you mind talking some about that Mark? Or do you have something else to say about the last thing?

Horswood

No, I can’t think of anything else to add to the last thing. That Turnaround Intensive Planning Intervention (TIPI) that you just were speaking of, actually that was probably just, I mean, such a landmark and milestone achievement in that plant, and such a huge step of progress.  Because that really embodied all the things that your Dad was teaching and coaching people on. What it was, I just remember your Dad’s, first book, Walking the Empowerment Tightrope.

Crosby

Good book.

Horswood

I remember he used to say, somebody would say, “Well, what, what things does the supervisor manage?” and I just remember your Dad saying, “Well, they managed the things that the crew doesn’t manage.”

Crosby

(Laughs) That’s simple.

Horswood

And it’s not the same. It’s not the same for every group.

Crosby

Right.

Horswood

But anyway, that TIPI was such a milestone and a huge event in cooperation and contribution and influence. They picked one spot, a coating line that they wanted to, was not doing very well in productivity. They wanted to make a change at. So they invited, you know, your Dad coaching the sponsor there. That was Jeff Jost, to, you know, invite as many people as you can that work in that department that have an interest in in changing it.

Crosby

Yeah. And Brian Bauerback, I think was…

Horswood

Yeah, Brian Bauerback started out and then you know, it was really an odd thing. I don’t know the whole story behind it, but I mean right in the middle, that was the three-day event, on day two, we heard Brian got promoted and Jeff Jost, he was his direct report, took over.

Crosby

Right.

Horswood

And a lot of people thought, well, how’s this going to go on. Because, you know, there was quite a few people there. We did it at the clubhouse where we could get quite a few people in there and it was mostly union workers.

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

I’m sorry. I can’t remember the numbers, but it could have been as many as 60 union workers and 20 or 30 engineers and management people. And you know, it was a big deal. Jess, our business agent who was one of the most progressive leaders that I’ve come across, he came and advocated it. He sponsored it. And he told the union people, “I know you haven’t been involved with this and you know, some of you may be skeptical and have reluctance.” But he said, “I’m telling you, this is an opportunity we’ve been fighting 40 years to have some say so in our work, in our shifts and how we do it and how we can do it better.” And he was just a powerful leader and he got a lot of people involved in that.

Crosby

Yeah, it was really one of the only OD interventions I’ve ever been involved in where the union leadership supported it stronger than the plant leadership.

Horswood

Exactly.

Crosby

Although Jeff supported it and Brian, but the people above them really…

Horswood

Yeah. The person who really needed to be in there was the plant manager. I can’t speak for him, why he didn’t, but I just don’t think he was bold enough.

Crosby

Whatever it was, he was absent.

Horswood

He was absent, yeah.

Crosby

And Jess filled that void remarkably. I recall this too, Mark, this is a different story. I don’t know when Jess said this, but at one point he introduced Dad. Maybe it was at the TIPI. He introduced him as a union brother.

Horswood

Yeah (laughs).

Crosby

Gave him a T-shirt (Horswood laughs). United Steel Workers, I guess. Yeah.

Horswood

Yeah.

Crosby

Yeah.

That was such a great relationship because, I hesitate to say, but I don’t think Jess trusted a lot of company people.

Crosby

Sure. Or consultants probably.

Horswood

Yeah. Or consultants.

Crosby

For good reason (laughs).

Horswood

Yeah. Your Dad and Jess really hit it off. And another indicator that things were changing was, that was the first time they ever had a union person, that they asked me to be the, what’s the term, the facilitator for that TIPI.

Crosby

Yep, especially for the follow up, of it.

Horswood

Yeah, exactly. I mean that was the first time a union worker was ever in a position like that. And frankly, I was nervous about it, I thought, “How are my guys gonna see me?” You know, like I jumped ship. I was afraid of it. I remember your Dad and Jeff Jost took me to lunch, and just tried to encourage me to do it. It was new territory for me too.

Crosby

Yeah, yeah. Probably most of the people in the room were afraid.

Horswood

Yeah, and skeptical, to say the least.

Crosby

Sure. So, I realize now based on the dates that you and I first met in 99 in Jamaica. And so we had run a couple of Tough Stuffs together before this TIPI. So we knew each other by then.

Horswood

Right, right. Yeah.

Crosby

So the TIPI itself, then as you know, is the process where people identify what’s in the way. In this case they were broken into theme groups. Like different parts of the process. That they helped identify the themes at the beginning. And so then they identify what’s in the way, and then they boil that down, and then they come up with what can we do about it. And there were a number of solutions, and a lot of the solutions came from hourly workers who were then going to lead the effort to implement the solution with management support. So just go on and fill in anything else you have to say about that. I guess the last thing I’ll add is it was a big success.

Horswood

Yeah, it was a big success. And what I think a big part of that was that anytime, and this was progress, any time that they would get the input from the union, which was the kind of gradual change, started out like that. They’d get a bunch of ideas and they’d just come in and dump them on the process engineers desk and say, “Here’s some new things for you to do.”

Crosby

That was before us.

Horswood

Yeah, before us (Crosby laughs).

Horswood

And so the process engineer’s like, “Man, I already only have like, you know, 5 minutes of extra time during my day. Now I just got 12 new action items to do.” And the union people that suggested them just went back to their job. Went on their way.

Crosby

Right. And the engineers probably had no idea what half of the stuff meant, too. Jusr notes.

Horswood

Wouldn’t understand it well and just be resentful like, “Here I’ve already got a full plate.”

Crosby

Yep.

And didn’t have enough involvement where I have a leader saying, “Hey, look, I know Gary this is what’s on your plate. Here’s what’s the priority. Here’s what’s not.” Wasn’t even getting that.

Crosby

Yep. It’s how a lot of. employee involvement stuff has been done over the decades and so on, like quality circles. Sort of a similar thing. If they’re run poorly, then it’s just you dump a bunch of ideas on management and say, “Good luck” (laughs).

Horswood

(Laughs) yeah, I think it just makes things worse.

Crosby

Yeah. Well, then when nothing gets done, it certainly makes things worse.

Horswood

And it was such a change. Well, for a couple of reasons. You know, one was, the people that had the passion for their particular issue. And the reason they had the passion was because they had the knowledge. They were saying that this could be done a lot better, a lot faster, a lot more efficient, a lot less labor intensive.

Crosby

In this part of the paint line process, we’re back to the planning session.

Horswood

Yeah, I mean that’s what made all the difference. Because you know your Dad was a big advocate. It’s like, “Hey, the person that has the issue has got the most passion for it. They’d be a great one to lead that.”

Crosby

Yep.

And so, you know, we had so many of the action items that we came up with. I think we had six different theme groups, 5 or 6. Different theme groups, one was engineering, one was scheduling, one was new parts, and there was two groups of people issues. But it was a whole new ball game and it took some time. I know it was like the first month things didn’t go so well. We had something like 11 action items and I really do think it was union people being in a position they never were in before. And that was like, they’ve never been in a position where they would send out an invitation for a meeting to company people and have them show up at a conference room.

Crosby

Right.

Horswood

They never did that before. They never ordered their own parts before. And it was just a whole new culture change.

Crosby

They never led their own improvement initiative before.

Horswood

Right.

Crosby

Period.

Horswood

Yeah, it totally came from them. One of the big faults the union would point out before is they’d ask for our input, we’d give them, say, 10 things and they’d cherry pick two of them and implement them and say, well, this came from you guys. And actually the whole package came from us, not just those two pieces you picked out. So it took a little while. I remember the first month, the first six weeks out of 11 action items that were due only two of them got done. And so we made some adjustments about people getting freed up and giving the authority to meet with others involved in that action item or that issue.

Crosby

Yeah, you mentioned Dad coaching you some on this thing like a month into it.

Horswood

Yeah, he was. You know, I remember just being frustrated myself.

Crosby

Sure.

Horswood

And you know, I just remember your dad (laughs), he said, “Mark, the way you’re talking about this, it’s like you’re the boss. I think that’s your approach to it. You know, trying to be authoritarian.” And he goes, “This is Jeff’s project. You’re a change agent. Any authority you need, you know, needs to either come from Jeff or get dialed down through Jeff.”

Crosby

Love it! Jeff was a sponsor. You’re the agent.

Horswood

And when I forgot that for a while or when I didn’t, you know, realize that for a while, it made things difficult. Trying to persuade people to do things or talk them into that or if I could only get them to see, you know, the light of doing this thing. And it’s just like trying to climb a slippery slope.

Crosby

All the responsibilities that really belong with their own bosses.

Horswood

Yeah, the bosses. The boss dials in the what and the change agent, me or somebody in my position, would help develop the how by getting information from the people involved in that job.

Crosby

Yep. So it was. So that’s was a great intervention. It’s good that you listen to Dad.

Horswood

(Laughs) yeah, I really needed to (Crosby laughs). Yeah, it changed everything, changed it. I got Jeff more involved day-to-day, and we’d walk around. I really just happened to be in a position where I had my finger directly on the pulse of what was going on in the plant. We used to walk around and I used to say, “Look, we need you to shine some sunshine of sponsorship on some of these people.” And so people that completed an action item,  he’d go there and personally thank them. It was so well received. We just walked around to different people that were getting things accomplished and reinforced it. And we also had what we called “two week out meetings” for anybody that had an action item that was due in the next two weeks. He would just kind of get with them down their home stretch. “Are you getting the resources? Are you getting the time? Are you getting the authority? Getting the cooperation?” Check with them. And if they had feedback that was in need, I mean Jeff would get all over it. And I really do think one of the biggest things about that process, that intensive turnaround, was we had the big timeline in the middle of the apartment where everybody could see it, walk by, 3 feet tall, 12 feet long and we had I think in that time period, it was a three month time period, we had something like 71 action items at the time. And so Jeff and I, we would start every day in front of that board and he’d be asking questions and pointing at certain action items and turning to me. And then sometimes we’d get somebody, an operator up there too. And I think it made such a difference when people see, you know, “He really is interested. He’s checking on it every single day.”

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

And it was reinforcing to the people that had the action item that he’d come around and make a personal connection and acknowledgement of their effort. And I think that there were so many people, the majority of the people, that were still what I would call the judges were still out whether this thing was, you know, going to be the same old dog and pony show or something new like they promised. I think after the first month, there was a lot of people that saw things getting done that hadn’t been done for years, that they were emboldened to start offering their own. Because we added on. We were just going to have a three month timeline but we just added on six more months on top of that because people were starting to come out of the woodwork, you know, with really good ideas.

Crosby

So he just kept adding new ideas and it seems like morale started to change.

Horswood

You know, big time. Big time. I think the general feeling was that, “Hey, you know what? Actually they are listening to us and you know they did that action item and they didn’t even change a thing. It was how we suggested it and that’s how they implemented it.” And people I think were just really encouraged. And frankly I know it happened to me. It was one of the best experiences I’ve had in my career, being the facilitator for that. I think it made a difference to them that it was union people that were helping run that program too. It’s encouraging.

Crosby

You know, I’ve got results here. Warrick TIPI. It says the goal was to increase production by 2,000,000 pounds per month because you were subcontracting demand outside the plant. The market was there and you guys weren’t able to do it. You hit that and the result was a $4 million gain per year in revenue.

Horswood

Yeah, it was amazing! It was amazing!

Crosby

That’s serious!

Horswood

Yeah, you know, it was so rewarding and fulfilling at the time. And it seemed so obviously to help things. But just to have the numbers show that at the end is like, hey, we did this thing and then for the first time in the history of that plant, I mean, we came up with this kind of numbers. That was just so encouraging, and that’s why I think more people jumped on there with some real significant issues that we just continued to improve.

Crosby

Of course. When you’re succeeding, you’d be pretty silly to stop (Horswood laughs).

OK, you know I found the timeline in my laptop here. And it’s having trouble opening. It’s a pretty damned old thing. So I was thinking I could open it up and look at a couple of the actions but it ain’t working that way. So anyway, that was you being in the middle of an amazing change in that plant, and meanwhile you were doing things like running off to the islands and working with me, doing Tough Stuffs and so on.

Horswood

Yeah, traveling around with, you know, Aldis, Gordon and Tom McCombs.

Crosby

Too fine…

Horswood

They were two LIOS graduates and they were the main administrators of the Tough Stuffs throughout the ALCOA system. So I’ve traveled around, Cotton and I both for two years, it was such a great opportunity. It was kind of like having a two year internship.

Crosby

Yeah. You also went through the corporate program, which was, you know, the Alcoa corporate leadership program (founded by Dad and administered by the Leadership Institute of Seattle), probably the only program in the history of the world where hourly workers were mixed in with management people getting leadership skills. I mean I think that’s pretty rare and you were in there with Cotton. You know I. Think we’ve sort of said enough about everything else. I’d love to hear about maybe how you met Cotton and early experiences, and whatever else you want to say.

Horswood

(Laughs) You know, it’s funny. Actually Cotton and I became best friends. Forever. He’s gone. I just remember we both got in the corporate leadership program. It was the first time I met him and the union guys that were involved in it, we had a meeting, and they were kind of telling us how it goes. And I remember seeing Cotton for the first time (laughs) and I kidded him later, I said, “You know, first time I saw you, you look like a player in a ZZ Top video. (Crosby laughs). Yeah, a beard down to his stomach and then long hair.

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

And I thought, “Man, who is this dude?”

Crosby

I’m going to include a picture of him in this book of the in his tux. It’s like a white tux and he’s got everything else you just said.

Horswood

Yeah, he was so great. And you know that was kind of a not formal meeting, but it’s more informative. Where people were telling you, people that have been, Billy McDaniel, Ed Butch, they were telling us how, when, and what to expect and what to do. That kind of thing. And then the very first class we went to, I remember Cotton, there was a break in the class, where we had been working on emotional intelligence. You know, your Dad teaching, and Patricia, and Denny and Brenda. And there was a break. And Cotton and I went, it was at resort or a lodge in Gatlinburg. And I remember both of us happened to be right underneath the hotel in the parking garage, smoking a cigarette. And he had his sunglasses on, and I was talking to him. I said, “Hey man. You know, I liked what you said in there.” And. I mean, this gets me choked up, even just thinking about it. I remember sitting there saying, “I liked what you said in there when you said this,” and I can’t remember what it was, but I remember watching a tear come running down.

Crosby

Hmm.

Horswood

And, oh, you know, my only other experience with him before is, he used to be coming to work when I’d be leaving work. He’s coming down the road on a big old Harley, that beard and hair blowing in the wind. And you know, when I said that to him at the parking garage, I said, “I like what you said there.” This tear came running down his cheek. And I thought, “Wow!” I thought, “That is really amazing to me.” You know what I told him? I said, “You know what I said to you? I meant that as a compliment.” He said, “Yeah, I took it as a compliment.” And uh, I just uh…

Crosby

You got me tearing up now, Mark.

Horswood

Well, I remembered on that, I thought, “That’s something I really lost the capacity to do.” And I thought, “Man, if this guy can cry, I sure can.” And you know, I don’t know if this is off the subject, but it just changed. You know, I had lost a son years before and it just opened up some awareness in me. That first meeting, I realized, you know, I lost a lot of my capacity to feel sadness, or pain, or cry even.

Crosby

Sure. Cotton was pretty genuine and that…

Horswood

I thought if this guy could cry.

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

I mean (laughs) he just seemed like a caricature of a tough guy, but if he can cry, I can cry. And you know, I had lost a son a few years before, and when I regained some of that capacity back to feel pain, I actually grieved my son more three or four years after he was gone than I did right after he was gone.

Crosby

I bet that was important for you.

Horswood

(Long pause) it was.

Crosby

And I’m sorry for your loss even now, Mark.

Horswood

Yeah. Well, you know, I don’t look at it as a bad thing anymore. But it does … actually, it’s just such a just a huge gift to get back.

Crosby

Mm-hmm. Nice.

Horswood

Anyway, so Cotton and I quickly became friends, mostly because (laughs) we smoked together during (laughs) outside taking breaks. But we just grew closer and closer, and he had an affinity for it. And you know, I certainly had an interest. And, next thing you know, Aldus and Tom were asking if we wanna co-train with them, and we start traveling around. We had our opportunity to do a, like I said, a two-year internship. Just watch and contribute and they just slowly took us around. The first thing that I ever did with Cotton that actually is the first LIOS type work, OD work, where we facilitated a survey feedback for his pot room supervisor. He just wanted to improve relationships with his crew, which there was about 20 of them. So, you know, Cotton got it together. We entered the room and the very first thing the supervisor came out and said, you know, what did he hope to get. Better cooperation. More input from the crew. He made that kind of sponsor’s statement and then left the room for us to, for Cotton and I to get some input from his people and help them give clean feedback.

Crosby

Help them get organized to talk to the supervisor.

Horswood

Right, right. Put it in a way that is palatable and understandable. And without any, I don’t know what you call it, sarcasm.

Crosby

Judgments.

Horswood

Judgments. Yeah. And so I remember that the supervisor left the room. And both of us stood up in front of the group, and we were saying “Hey, what kind of issues you got?” And I mean it was like a blast from a furnace door (laughed). I mean, it almost reminds me of that commercial, where the stereo is so loud that the guy in the chair, his hair is blowing backwards (Crosby laughs). That’s what it felt like. The onslaught. That’s how I would describe it. It came from that group. I mean, voicing all at once, and I remember looking at Cotton. I’m thinking, “Man, what did we get ourselves into?” (Crosby laughs) But you know, it was really interesting because it was a great lesson for me forever after. After that is like sometimes people just need to get rid of some of that energy, before they can start talking.

Crosby

Yeah, especially if it’s been built up for years.

Horswood

Yes, and they’re finally getting the opportunity, and here’s the person that asked, and here’s somebody I can unload on.

Crosby

Yep. And they it’s not like they were taught to be polished or something.

Horswood

Right, exactly.

Crosby

So you do have to be patient (laughs).

Horswood

Yeah. You have to be patient. And I don’t know if it’s Danny Minno that said this (laughs), but I heard somebody from LIOS faculty. They said, the old saying is … it may have been your Dad. “If you don’t give them two minutes, it may take two years.”

Crosby

Mm-hmm.

Horswood

And really, I just became aware of my own inclination, when conflict comes spewing out like that, is to help tamp it out or shut it down. And I found the best way is just, hey, give it a little time it’s energy, needs to be dissipated.

Crosby

Makes sense. And we don’t speak for people. So then you helped them once they calmed down a little, get really clear about, what do they want to have be different…

Horswood

Exactly. Absolutely.

Crosby

And what they want to say to the boss and all that, and then they did it themselves after that with you there to help.

Horswood

Yeah. Help to surface it.

Crosby

Yeah, yeah.

Horswood

And I think there’s this like built up frustration and resentment that as soon as it gets an opening to express itself, it’s going to come pouring out.

Crosby

Makes sense so. So you and Cotton, it’s like bonding in the midst of crisis (laughs).

Horswood

Yeah, that particular, we did. That particular intervention, we had a couple follow-ups. You know Cotton and I would often comment on the change in that group because the first time, people came in and you could just tell by their body language they were ready to fight. You know, tense. But by the third meeting with that, and the supervisor making changes that he heard came up in that meeting and that they were able to give to him, you know, in a really clean way. We just remarked every once in a while on the last session, people just having a foot up on the table and just leaning back (Crosby laughs). And the one thing in particular, the supervisor, Lee was his first name. Lee, he goes, “Well. I need to get this better.” And the crew would say, “Well, that’s not your fault, Lee (laughs).” And you know, no words like that were ever spoken the first time.

Crosby

Yeah, yeah. Ande ever before that, right? Like when they were dealing with each other in the plant.

Horswood

Yeah. Before that, everything was his fault (Crosby laughs). And you know, they were trying to take up for him. They’d go, “Well, that’s not your fault, Lee. You can’t help that.” It was amazing.

Crosby

That is an amazing shift. And what a relief.

Horswood

Oh my gosh. You know, and I thought, it just wasn’t that complicated.

Crosby

Yeah, yeah. But people get stuck in it. They get stuck in, “Well, it’s their fault” and “nothing’s gonna change unless they change.” You know, it’s just easy to stay stuck like that.

Horswood

Yeah, it taught me an important lesson. I know a lot of times I tell stories to make a point. But I remember one time after Christmas, I threw my Christmas tree out in the yard (laughs). By the garden. It dried up and come spring I thought, “Well, I’ll just burn this thing up.” Well I lit that thing up and I thought, “Oh my God. What did I unleash?” (Crosby laughs) It was blazing, you know, like an oil fire, that we need to get in there and put that out. And I thought, “Well, just give it a minute.” And you know, really, when a Christmas tree is that dried out, it took about 15 seconds. And I thought, oh, ok, then I can take care of it. And it just reminded me of that first vent session is like, ok, ok, I know it looks kind of dangerous, but just give it a minute. Take it easy. Keep breathing. Keep listening. And it would dissipate. But if you shut it down, it forevermore is going to remain there.

Crosby

Makes sense. So then you and Cotton, probably even in that moment, were part of what Dad always called a cadre. Which was people within the plant learning how to do OD work the way we do it and learning how to run meetings and help people resolve conflict. Right?

Horswood

Yeah, those were such great days because you know, our cadre was made-up, if not entirely by hourly workers, the huge majority of them. And I think there was only eight of us. So it just got to the point where by that time they had given me an office and you know, a laptop and I just traveled around or did work in the plant. People called me directly and sometimes it would be on the smelting side. We had cadre workers over there that would run a meeting or facilitate or do third party conflict management. They just really opened things up and I think it all started with Don Simonic being a  strong advocate for it and knowing how to, you know, plug in that sponsorship all the way down the organization.

Crosby

Yeah, that’s important. That’s important. Well, look, man, I think I think we’ve covered it and I really, Mark, I appreciate you. And I appreciate this conversation.

Horswood

Yes, I’ve enjoyed it too. It’s been cool looking back on the experience and, I know going through LIOS was two of the best years of my life. And you know afterwards it just opened a whole new line of work. You and I traveling around doing it and you know, just watching it make a difference in places.

Crosby

We did quite a bit and quite a few places together. Is there any other? This book is, in a sense, a tribute to Cotton. I mean, it’s about the hourly voice and it’s about many things, but it’s also a tribute to Cotton. Anything else? Any other story?

Horswood

Well, one thing, just given the focus of this book, View from a target. Cotton and I have talked about it many times. Just the idea of it. We thought it was helpful, this sponsor, agent, target. You got a boss that wants to change things, and then he enlists the help of like, experts, that can bring about that change. And then you got the targets, who are the people that kind of the change lands on. Or effects. And we thought just in coaching leaders, we thought we could be a real service to them saying, “Look. You know what? I know you got the best intentions.” I believe 99.9% of the leaders I’ve coached, they do have good intentions.

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

But I think they’re so removed. Just like I talked about engineers making a design change, all from the ivory tower. They wouldn’t come down on the floor and see how that change really manifests itself physically. They didn’t get that connection. And from the view from the target, we thought it would be helpful to leaders saying, “Look, I know you meant well with this, but I want you to know this particular change, by the time it got to the floor level, this is the shape it took. And this is the impact on the people. And I really don’t think that’s what you intended. But as it gone through there, through sustaining sponsorship or lack of it, when it got to the bottom? It wasn’t that.

Crosby

It’s a little like playing telephone.

Horswood

Yeah, the farther away you get from the message and the more channels it passes through, the more it twists itself.

Crosby

Including the feedback back up. People on the floor are saying, “Well, this is crap.” And by the time it gets up all through the layers the CEO is hearing that, “Well, everything’s fine.”

Horswood

You know, actually that’s a beautiful part of it, because I think the old response would have been only “This is crap.” Where I saw things change, saying, “Ok this is crap. And here’s why. And here’s what.” Because there was another change, I do think going through Tough Stuff made a difference on. Whereas we had always in the past as a union had this pattern of, “Wherever the company suggests, we were against it.” It’s like that guy you talked about in Corpus Christi.

Crosby

Yeah.

Horswood

Well, we just would say, “No, no, no.” And then the change was more like, “Look, we can’t go along with this, but look here. Here’s an alternative that has a mixture of what you’re talking about, but a way that we think this could work.” It was not just saying no, but just offering your own constructive input.

Crosby

Yep, and even that planning process, Mark, that you were involved in takes it even further and says, “Well, what do you guys think’s in the way? And what do you what do you think we should do about it? And what can you do about it?” You know, it just reverses, instead of management trying to do all the thinking.

Horswood

Oh it made all the difference in the world. You know just like not saying, “Check your brain at the gate.” And I think it was so reflected in that operator where he’d operated that mill for 20 years and nobody asked him.

Crosby

Yep.

Horswood

And you know what? He wasn’t inclined to offer.

Crosby

Yep. “They aren’t asking me. Just let them go do what they’re going to do and we’ll see what happens!”

Horswood

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, the totally accepted pattern at that time was, mills down, and he might know exactly what’s wrong with it (laughs), but he’d walk away to the break room until he they got it fixed.

Crosby

Yep. All predictable behaviors and attitudes that will come from running a place in such a way that people think they aren’t respected or heard or valued. Anyway, that’s what you’re going to get. And it’s possible to turn the ship.

Horswood

You know, it’s so possible and that’s what I would just love to reinforce or just let leaders know out there. I mean one of the surprising things I saw in my later years working at Warwick and everywhere, I would find that in spite of a bad relationship with management the vast majority of workers just want to do their job and do it well.

Crosby

Yep, Yep.

Horswood

And sadly, many times, in spite of management.

Crosby

Every place I’ve ever been.

Horswood

Yeah, not in cooperation with management, but in spite of. And I always was impressed, with very little encouragement these guys continue to come to work day after day and try to do their job right. So the reason I say that is like, hey, with just a little bit of encouragement and cooperation and support, it can make some huge changes.

Crosby

Makes sense. You’re a sensible guy, Mark.

Horswood

(Laughs) you are too my friend.

Crosby

OK. Well, look, I think that’s. Probably a good place to stop unless you got anything else that you want to say.

Horswood

You know what? I don’t have anything to add to this, but you know, I think you getting out the heart of Cotten’s work. You know he made such an impact.

Crosby

Yes, he did.

Horswood

Everywhere he went. Just helping things, with people. It wasn’t rocket science that he promoted. Just listening and really hearing. Not listening enough to become defensive and seeing how you’re going to fend off that comment. Just really listening. And inquiring. “What do you need? What can I do?”

Crosby

Yep. He was a master at that.

Horswood

He was great at it, you know. Great.

Crosby

Alright, man. Well, I am gonna call this a wrap. And so, thank you, Mark.

Horswood

It’s my pleasure, Gil. It’s always good.